#053: Innovation in Network Automation with Damien Garros: The OpsMill Solution - Part 2

Eric Chou: 0:00

Network Automation Nerds Podcast. Hello and welcome to Network Automation Nerds Podcast, the podcast about Network Automation, network Engineering and many technology topics. I'm your host, eric Cho. In today's episode we'll continue on our conversation with Damian Garros, ceo and co-founder Opsmill. Last week we talked a little bit about Damian's background and what led him to the founding or the solving of this problem for Opsmill. I'm super excited to continue our conversation. Welcome back, damian, thank you.

Damien Garros: 0:40

Thank you very much.

Eric Chou: 0:41

Where we left out last week was a very interesting topic on both the, I guess, on the technical level as well as on the soft-skilled level. One thing you mentioned was we should pay more attention to other verticals where you need. But we're not that unique. We're special, but we're not that special. I totally agree with that. What spun off that was, of course, the relational versus the graph database and so on. Why don't we continue on that topic? First of all, that was your aha moment. You were mentioning that you look at other industries and you say, hey, everybody retail e-commerce or, I'm sorry, retail almost the same thing, but e-commerce, healthcare and all these other industries are coming to this realization that they have to have extensible schema and using graph database. Why don't you elaborate a little bit on that?

Damien Garros: 1:39

Yeah, so that was actually the first one, and then again I realized that there's a lot of power to bring the data in a central place. And then the next logical step is actually when you need to have everything in a central place. That means usually you have to copy the data from somewhere else to be able to bring it for consumption in a central place.

Eric Chou: 1:59

Yeah, you have to extract and load right. So the industry was extra load and transform.

Damien Garros: 2:03

So you're talking about the first two letters and it's almost another industry which is about you know, we call that the data platform and the people that are specialized in ETL and moving data and a big use case for it in their case is actually like building dashboards and all that Correct right. While looking at an industry, I actually learned about a term. That was like this second ha-ha moment for me. I saw people talking about data lineage and what it means is that they realize that basically, they are moving the data and then at the end of the chain, someone is consuming that data, and at some point, this person was not trusting the data. It was like am I actually looking at the latest data? Has it been updated?

Damien Garros: 2:49

You know, the pipeline was so complicated that it was doubting if he was looking at the right one, and so they started having a trust problem. And I think it's the same problem that we also have, and in many ways in our case, like in terms of when we start centralizing all the data in a system like Netbox or Linovots, we have the same problem. I've experienced it myself. And so this data lineage what I realized is that they're not just moving data as every state of the way, they're also capturing a lot of metadata about the data itself and in terms of where is it coming from, who is the owner, if there is a problem, who should I go to? And all of those metadata information. They will basically tell you at the end of the chain if you can trust that data and who you should get to if you have any questions.

Eric Chou: 3:39

Yeah, by the way, I just want to point out that that is why the lineage problem is why we're trusting the production, using that as a source of truth. It must be right, if it's working in production, that must be the most optimal way to do it. But that's not necessarily true. But for a lack of other ways to do this, that's why we're always going back to the switch and say, okay, what's the real instructor today?

Damien Garros: 4:05

Yeah, yeah. And so when I actually realized that I made it in my mind, I was like, okay, we need to be able to capture metadata in addition to the data in the source of truth, Because, again, we won't be able to have people bring their data in a central place that we have a single schema and this idea of a single source of truth. Personally, I'm not sold on it, Like there's always going to be multiple systems.

Damien Garros: 4:30

So we're always going to have to do some synchronization, but it has to be done right. And what's important is that if we copy a data somewhere for it to be consumed, you have to protect it and to make sure that no one is going to touch it.

Eric Chou: 4:44

Right, you have to launch it, yeah.

Damien Garros: 4:46

So that's the first place, and the second one is you need to provide visibility of where it is that is coming from to the user so that they understand that, if they want to change it, where they have to go. That's where this metadata, for me, was really super important. So it's actually a feature that we built into our product and for me, that was the features. I immediately again realized that I would never be able to do that with a relational database, because that means pretty much having a dedicated table for every single attribute.

Eric Chou: 5:15

Right, you have so many, many to many relationships. It's crazy.

Damien Garros: 5:20

Yes, that wouldn't work. But in a graph database it's actually super easy. It's like almost natural because the way we organize the data, it's super easy, on any given data points, to build relationships, to create and capture these networks of metadata from each and every attributes. And I guess that was my second, you know, ha ha moments where I was like, okay, there's no doubt, you know like we have to move away from relational database and move to graph database and have system that has a very flexible schema, support metadata and has version control. And you know, yeah, started building the prototype. And then I started reaching out to no-transcript. Rafael, my co-founder, and I was like, hey, man, I've been facing the exact same problem for years. And then started to, you know, join forces and decided to start to complete together.

Eric Chou: 6:11

Wow, that's a. That's very interesting, right. I mean a lot, I think a lot of us in the engineering world, you know, we realize the problem and we may have like a technical solution, but it's one thing to realize and, you know, even have a prototype, but it's another to actually leaving the, the, the safety of a corporate world, even though you were always you know just from our conversation, you're always in the startup world, right, so it's inherently more risky than, say, juniper or Cisco, but at the same time it's it's another really leap of faith to actually go start your own company. So Tell us more about that.

Damien Garros: 6:50

Yeah, I'm, you know, I think pretty much since you graduated I knew someday, you know, starting company, this intrapreneur mindset, I think from Like intrapreneur they call that's like you know, in a lot of different places I was sure or spin-ins that Cisco would say it right.

Damien Garros: 7:09

So I was always trying to push, you know, my project and things like that internally right, I think, again, you know, to do it you need to have the right idea, and so it took me. I've been thinking about that for probably five years before actually decided to jump. Oh, wow, I got lucky that, thanks to Roblox, I had, you know, a bit of saving that would give me the freedom of like Now I have to worry every day and give me a little bit of space that I can do that. And then, yeah, and after that, I was also, you know, finding the right partners. You know, super important to actually have the right partner. So I was lucky to find, to find Raphael's. Raphael Manier is a very experienced intrapreneur in the infrastructure space in France, and so we really met. You know, we had the same experience with the problem, same passion for it, so that was also a very big part of Creating that company, because it's really hard to do that. So, yeah, so yeah where?

Eric Chou: 8:13

where is a up smoke today? So you mentioned you met him, raphael, and he's a, so I guess he's a. He had access before it, or was he?

Damien Garros: 8:25

Yeah, say, we're, you know, very actively building the, building the product. We're, you know, making always through a bit of some more like in a private manner, right now, working with multiple like we call that design partners, sure, companies that have experience, information, that understand some of the pain point that we're we're trying to solve, and they are very eager to work with us to help us, you know, analyze the design. So, yeah, we, you know, we assemble the team, so the, you know, we you managed to get very lucky we are in our industry like, for example, we're so lucky to ask to get Patrick Cogen stand to join us. You know a lot of, you probably know him and he's done a lot of writing in the industry. So, early on we managed Patrick and then you know other member of the team and so, yeah, right now we're actively, actively building the product nice, nice.

Eric Chou: 9:29

So, um, I mean there's, there's just a lot of interesting ideas, right, and you know, coming into, um, coming into, kind of this problem space. You almost have to go through the same pain point that you have done before, right, um, to have this kind of Convince, you know, convincing yourself that this is that graph, graph Database, for example, is the way to go versus relational database. And for people who are not who, who even not who's using spreadsheets, right, who are not even using a regular relational database or Apis to solve their problem, you almost, like it takes a leap of faith to trust you, to say, hey, damian, you know, I, I think you've done all of these other stuff, and now you come to that, that conclusion, just as you were looking at other industry, right, like other smart people who have faced the same problem, comes to this conclusion so I trust you and I will use your product. So, um, is that true or is that? Uh, how? How are you acquiring these, like you said, right, like these beta users who are experiencing the same same problem?

Damien Garros: 10:39

I mean there's certainly an element of trust. Now I think it's, it's um, if the pain point is big enough, people are really eager to find a solution and in this specific space, we've talked to so many companies that are building automation and every single one of them they are Are looking for solution to those problems. How do I manage more extensibility, more version controls? Uh, you know, and and basically met my entire stack more manageable. When you come and bring a different approach and you know potentially a solution to their problem, then they're really, of course, they think about the maturity of the product and the risk, but they, you know, they really have, say, sink, make the jump, um, at the end of the day, if they didn't have a problem they would not even talk to us, right, and then that's kind of also what I wanted. I wanted to um, to bring an autocon, and why I did this presentation is I feel like today we're not talking enough about those problems. Like we see more people that are getting started in automation, that are super excited, that are building their first cac pipelines and deployments and the right blogs. That is like I, and it feels like you know all the problems have been solved Again super excited that we get more people and more energy in this space and more voices.

Damien Garros: 11:59

I think it's it's great, but I wish we would also acknowledge that this is just one generation in our journey and I think we made such a big leap from where we were previously with the spreadsheet. Now it's not the end of the journey. There's still a lot of work ahead of us and I think we need to keep looking and working and it's not necessarily mean that bad for the current generation of the tool is just the evolution. There's always many, many generation of tools and, yeah, I really love to have more discussion on that. I think we've been thinking about it. We've been trying to bring all of that into design of what we're doing. But I think, as an industry, if everyone was actually brainstorming on that and openly talking about those limitations, they will help us move even faster.

Eric Chou: 12:54

Yeah. So let's change gear a little bit on, just from the product side. So now we know a little bit about your background, which is certainly extensive and high level, very technically involved, and now you're building your own tool, but now doing at the macro level as you were starting to get into right. So what do you think about the industry in general, like you said, right? So I have my own personal opinion on the kind of like the polarization of their automation, where we have people who are living in their own bubble, who everything is hyper scale, everything is Google, amazon, and we have people who are in their own team, which is like one or two, like 1.5 network engineers. Right? The point five also handles Windows Server Administration and all that. What are your thoughts on that? Where is the industry right now in terms of network automation?

Damien Garros: 13:52

Yeah, there was a lot of discussion about that in Denver First. I think it's massively growing. You can tell that the number of people that are participating in this discussion just the number of people who had in Denver was actually pretty mind blowing. We had 350 people.

Eric Chou: 14:09

Minus one. This dude right here.

Damien Garros: 14:13

I remember in 2018, there was an for me, which was the previous network automation conference that was organized actually by network to code. Before I joined Right, it was done on the side of interop, not interop.

Eric Chou: 14:27

Oh no, I remember that it was. It was virtual, wasn't it?

Damien Garros: 14:30

No, no, no, we actually had one in Vegas, okay, and that was amazing, but at the time we may have like 80 people in the room or something like that.

Eric Chou: 14:41

Yeah. I wanted to say interop, but maybe that's not it. I think it was interop, yeah, okay.

Damien Garros: 14:48

And Jason was the driver and the network to code team at the time behind them. But yeah, so looking now, having 350 people, you can definitely tell that the committee has has grown. I think there's more realization that might take away from Denver the first one in what I really like it's more people now are talking about driven design, driven automation.

Eric Chou: 15:15

Okay.

Damien Garros: 15:15

I think it's a. It's probably a better term than intent based networking or this idea that's in many case. You know, we always have a design behind what we're doing and it's just that today this design is not properly captured and we need to see more. We need to be that, to have the design as part of the automation tools, like in the past, I think the automation was focusing on the low level that will generate from the design, but they will not be silly capture the design.

Eric Chou: 15:44

Yeah, jeremy.

Damien Garros: 15:45

Shuman did a really great presentation at Denver explaining how he's doing that at MLB. Personally, I really like the what the Aristagaz are doing with the AVD project, where they also have this design aspect in mind. I've had many conversations at AutoCon where people also start to think along those lines and I know many customers that are thinking the same is like we need to start capturing our design and we need to have tools and our own system and that would generate the low level implementations based on this higher level design. That's how we're going to make all of that manageable. Again, I'm very excited with that because for me, at the end, it goes back to capture all of that in a proper source of truth. That means you need even more extensibility of the schema, because the technical layer is probably going to be shared across everyone, but the design is going to be different. That just speak to what we're building in the line with our vision. So I think that was pretty exciting.

Eric Chou: 16:46

Oh yeah, totally, Because I remember, even back when I was at Microsoft, I mean we would have this all open public information. We would have different versions of our data centers V9, v8, v10, so on and so forth and every time we finalize that design going from V9 to V10, for example there's many, many messy iterations and inputs from different business teams At Microsoft. You have from Bing, from Azure, from Office, windows, whatever, and then those were mixed together and then you got this jumbo output at the end where we have that design, but none of that was captured. So maybe this was the decision, it was a compromise between the requirement from Azure and Windows or whatnot.

Eric Chou: 17:33

And then, on Vision 11 design, because those were not captured, we're making the same mistake. We're talking about the same discussion that we've had before and then we may or may not come up with the same conclusion just because the people in charge were different. So I totally see what you're talking about. On being more the low technical detail, this is the switch spec that we settled on. This is the vendor, this is how many ports, this is a spine and core layer, but none of that prior stuff were captured. So if we had been able to capture all of that. That would have saved us a quick iteration time. So much.

Damien Garros: 18:10

Yeah, and again, I think the best public version of that is what Rista is doing. So go check it out. Rista Validate Design. They're doing really really good stuff.

Eric Chou: 18:22

Right, but the problem with that is just a Rista right. They're not going to capture it.

Damien Garros: 18:27

But again, at least sometimes people need to see, to understand, and so they've done an amazing job actually to put a lot of things outside. They have videos they're really good at, they have really great documentation. So, yeah, this idea of design-driven automation for me is really well represented by the Rista team.

Eric Chou: 18:50

Yeah, and also it matches what you were talking about before, right. Like captured the meta history.

Damien Garros: 18:56

And the other aspect that I took from the conference was I feel like there's more and more people that realize that we need more professionalization of this space.

Damien Garros: 19:06

One thing that was actually missing for me and maybe I'll have my own perspective to it is there's always discussion like hey, we're still talking. Hey, there's the network engineers, there's the software engineer. Do we need to have the network engineer learn code or do we need to have the software engineer learn networking? I'm missing. What was that missing in this conference since the acknowledgement that it's neither of them? It's like we need to have new roles. We need to have a network automation person or a network NRE, or like it's not the net, like the network engineer will have to learn some of the stuff, but that doesn't mean they have to become full programmers and the software engineer is not going to be a network automation architect.

Damien Garros: 19:50

For me, it's like there's this new field that we are creating right now. Some people will probably transfer from both sides. We'll see software engineers becoming automation architects and we'll see network engineers becoming automation architects. But we just have to accept that we're creating a new function in the organization and it's more than just a network engineer. Which one do we need to train to do the other job or so?

Eric Chou: 20:18

on that If you come up with a new term, let me know. Right, Because I'm dying to do that as well. Right, I was so excited when people came up with DevOps or you know, like this new way of describing what we're seeing already. Right, but coming up with a term that accurate, captures the ideas and concepts, which is a hard part.

Damien Garros: 20:42

For me there would be network automation architects, and actually when I was at Network2Code, I pushed really hard for us to create a team that was really the architecture team, because even inside Network2Code we had these situations where we had a lot of really bright people, all very knowledgeable about automation, but at some point we realized not everyone was able to lead the design of an entire platform, which was the customers and then and so yeah, I will personally think this role of network automation architect or infrastructure automation architect is really has some specific skills, and then the other one.

Eric Chou: 21:18

So all of the tongue is like platform engineering, right.

Damien Garros: 21:21

So platform engineering for me is more like the network liability engineers. It's like the people that make sure the tools are running and understand the business aspect of those tools and the business aspect of what they're actually managing so that they can make like. The NRE is the one that has a deep understanding of the network and has software skill. You may not have an understanding of the network architecture, but it can write the code to make the network work. So that's the NRE for me. Yeah, in the organization I think you will have NRE and you have network automation architects and you'll have network engineers and network architects. Like all roles have a place, but yeah, so I wish there was more of that in the conference. And the last one was a more professionalization in the sense that we probably there was a few discussion I wouldn't say it was a general agreement, but there was a few people trying to push the narrative that we need to have more vendors.

Eric Chou: 22:22

And I'm not saying that because we're Vendors at the conference, or vendors within the space Within the space, it's just at some point or more competition, you mean? Okay?

Damien Garros: 22:32

It's also like and I think Jeremy Schumann was the one really pushing for it he was like you know, I should not have to build those tools. If we're in an industry where everyone has to build their own tools and build a software team internally, it doesn't work. And so you're really pushing like we need to have vendors that build the right tools so that we can buy them and integrate them. We're really working too much into the do-it-yourself kind of way, and I hope you know of course I'm biased right now, but in a many ways I'd like to think that I decided to make the jump and do all of that because I had the same belief in the same place. That's the only way we actually get out. If we're having better tools and more mature tools. I personally also wish we had better open source community.

Eric Chou: 23:17

Yeah.

Damien Garros: 23:17

In a sense that you know we're talking about Kirk earlier and all the work that he does and like.

Eric Chou: 23:26

We need more Kirk to do it.

Damien Garros: 23:27

Sorry.

Eric Chou: 23:29

No, I would say we need more Kirk and we need more Jeremy Shulman, but at the same time they're saying no, no, I don't want to do it right, like I should be offloading that to people who actually get paid to do it.

Damien Garros: 23:39

I mean honestly, if everyone that was using what Kirk is maintaining was giving him like, even just like 10 bucks a year, he could probably hire a team of people to work with him, and I wish we would have ways for companies to bring back more money into the open source tools that they use.

Eric Chou: 23:56

Yeah.

Damien Garros: 23:57

I feel like we're missing that right now the open source community that we have. We have some great projects. It's all based on individuals. You know, like NetTorque to Code we'll call that the hero mindset, or like the hero cultures, like we really depend on people doing this extra mass to maintain those projects and I think that's long term. That's not going to be sustainable. Again, huge to those. Anyone that is doing that today and contributing and all that. And I've tried to do my own share of that. But yes, as an industry we really need to start single-cano. That's a lot of work that deserves something. So we should really try to think of how we could bring more money into. Someone at the conference brought the idea that maybe we need those 12th foundation Like the CNCF, but for our kind of project. So that's companies, fees are for them to put money into it and then these foundations can bring back or redistribute some of that money to the open source project.

Eric Chou: 25:03

Yeah, that's what very interesting right?

Eric Chou: 25:05

Because that's what the Python Software Foundation started to do.

Eric Chou: 25:09

I don't know if people are familiar with it, but so the problem with Python, of course, was like there are tools, open source tools, like Request or some other libraries, that are used by billion dollar company, fortune 500, by NASA, to lend spacecrafts on Mars and space station, but these would rely on like five dudes in a garage maintaining it, right?

Eric Chou: 25:33

So the Python Software Foundation have decided, and also there are, like other you know grassroots movement on Python meetups and so on, that are depending on one or two people to maintain, you know, like the meetup in Seattle, meetup in LA, whatnot. So the Python Software Foundation have created this nonprofit structure. There already are the 503s and so they do all the paperwork, but now they're grabbing, like the Django, the meetups and the Request software or Flask, for example, right, that project they come in so they don't have to do, and then they allocate funds to them so they don't have to deal with, like, the paperwork, having the directors or having like quarterly, you know, board meetings in order to still qualify for that nonprofit. So that's super interesting that you brought it up.

Damien Garros: 26:21

Yeah, I'm honestly again, that was just all the way conversation, but I really my hope is you know, maybe you aren't just removed toward more of that. I think there will be. You know we did more. I really believe in open source. Again, I've been involved. You know we're really thinking and most likely you know what we're building is going to. You know, be in the open source. Yeah, oh really oh wow.

Damien Garros: 26:45

I don't think we can commit anything you know, but it's definitely, you know, something we're discussing. You know very often, because I do see a lot of the value then.

Eric Chou: 26:54

Yeah, at least being entertained on that front, right, yeah, but again this today.

Damien Garros: 27:00

it's hard because so many people are single-pense also, just like taking it and not getting back Right. So that's also a sequence like holding probably a lot of company from participating.

Eric Chou: 27:12

For me, I don't think it's. People don't want to give back. It's almost like the remember when, prior to what is that music streaming platform? Spotify, yeah, spotify. So prior to Spotify, right it was. It was hard to, to just pay 99 cents or whatever. Or Apple you know Apple music, right, it was very hard for them to enjoy the benefits of digital music without like, without properly licensing it, right. But once you provide people with a way to to enjoy the music you know legally, stream it legally, you know, purchase the digital rights and so on, then people are willing to do that. So I mean, what are your thoughts on that?

Damien Garros: 27:56

I agree. I I think you know my analysis will be actually the people that wants to give back are probably not the one holding the wallet when the company, the technical committees, usually involve with open source and they see the value but they don't necessarily have the ability to, you know, make the move Right. The one. The second one will be that you know, I think the open source product today are stricter to receive some money. Yeah.

Damien Garros: 28:20

There was this aspect that you know you need to have an organization to receive the money. You need to have an organization to distribute that to the contributors, like there's probably a lot of things missing. Yeah, I'm, you know not. The blame is not just on on the users. I was trying to pick them.

Eric Chou: 28:38

No, we love the users. Please continue to use it and you know give us for sure.

Damien Garros: 28:44

But but I again I maybe it's more on the managers. You know I yeah, there's probably a lot of things. The one thing I really love is there's few companies that are actually actively basically redistributing to the open source for all the projects that they are using internally. I know, like it's century century has been very open about that and they go home and I think it's really the right mindset. So hey, we, we couldn't build a product without it. So we're gonna redistribute some of our benefits to the community. I wish more company would do that. I certainly hope and plan on doing that myself. You know when we get to the points where we have to have revenue, so maybe some sorts, you know, but the probably needs to come from higher up in the management chain.

Eric Chou: 29:38

Yeah, I think it just needs to be discussed, right, like talking about it really is the first step.

Eric Chou: 29:44

I mean, I had Don Shuwan, who's the organizer for Picon and some of the other like PyData and all that stuff within the Seattle community, and he's now, you know, I think, his partner of a VC fund who's sponsoring these open source projects for Python data science.

Eric Chou: 30:04

So I think talking about it really is the first step and we need to figure out, or just borrow it from Python, for example, on the right approach and business model so that I can make it work. I mean, something I didn't realize was, you know, a lot of projects are saying open source projects like, hey, we could survive on $20,000 a year, right, but for companies like Microsoft, it's easy for them to write a $20,000 check, but it's hard for them to write it to a small company, to just write 20,000. They much rather just do a one time thing for 100K for I don't know two years, right, and then they have to justify to their company on what are we getting out of it? Maybe it's driving the direction of that project, maybe sitting on the board or influence the decision or which feature to implement and so on, but does that impact the nature or the spirit of open source or community driven? So I think talking about it is the first way and the second is really to figure out a business model where that's sustainable.

Damien Garros: 31:05

Yeah, I really hope as an industry we can have more of this conversation and make some progress toward that. You know, whatever is the way it looks like, yeah. I mean, we need something like that.

Eric Chou: 31:17

It goes back to what you were talking about before the end of our first part was, you know, we need to look at other industry more, right, we need to get out of our own silo and go look at, okay, what are other people doing. And that I mean in my own small way. That's what I'm trying to do too with the podcast is just to invite people who are in the network industry but like yourself, who has a very diverse background, and even people like Don, I don't think that episode ranked like the top five ever listen, but it was worth it. It was worth to look at from a business perspective and look at it from like a VC perspective on. You know why, sponsor open source? Right, like what's in it for me? Is it just out of the goodwill of me? That could be it, but you know, to be on the long-term sustainability, it needs to have something in it for me as well.

Damien Garros: 32:07

Yeah, 100%. I'll go back and listen to this one.

Eric Chou: 32:11

Oh no, no, I mean, that's not my own problem, that's not what I meant. I totally agree to everything you're saying. I'm happy that the conversation's starting and it was so good to see that even just a launch of Autocon Zero on such a well-receiving. Hopefully we'll see Autocon one, two, three, four and five right.

Damien Garros: 32:31

Yeah, heard already planning on one, so yeah, they're going to plan on one. I already mentioned that. Yeah, they're most likely. I think one is going to be in Europe in spring and then they're planning two in the US back in fall.

Eric Chou: 32:48

Yeah, I mean hopefully it's not too late in the year. I mean they had it in Denver. I'm glad it didn't snow or anything right, but there's it's a non-zero chance that you might get a bad weather and yeah we'll see, I didn't get a chance to leave the hotel anyway, so could have been a good idea, but I probably wouldn't have noticed though. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, thanks again, Damien, for being on the show. So where can people find you? On social or to find more information about what you're building, what you're up to?

Damien Garros: 33:24

Yeah, the best you know now it is probably LinkedIn and GitHub. Okay, so you know from time to time on Twitter or X, but more as learning than really writing.

Eric Chou: 33:38

Okay, awesome. Thanks again for being on the show. I really enjoyed our conversation. I hope you know to see. I will invite you back once the product is launched. How far away do you think? I mean, I'm not trying to put you on the spot, but how far away do you think that you have some sort of like version 0.1 beta out in public?

Damien Garros: 33:59

Yeah, the public aspects were still. I'll say, you know, three to six months. But again, don't hold me to that please.

Eric Chou: 34:05

Oh, wow, that's really quick. I mean, I guess you know you do have investors that needs to take care of it, that you need to. We're working on that too. Oh, okay, got it Cool. Well, thanks again for being on the show. I really enjoyed our conversation. Thank you very much. Thank you for listening to NERC Animation Nerds podcast today. Find us on Apple podcast, google podcast, Spotify and all the other podcast platforms. Until next time, bye, bye Did Kurdian".