#054 Embracing Change in Tech with Ethan Banks and Drew Conry-Murray - Part 1

Speaker 1: 0:00

Network Automation Nerds Podcast. Hello, welcome to Network Automation Nerds Podcast, the podcast about network automation, network engineering, python and other technology topics. I'm your host, eric Cho. This is a very special episode today, and boy, I think we're in for a treat, because we're going to have virtual donuts, we're going to have network breaks and we're going to have not enough, never enough, network automation and technologies. And so today on the show we have two very special people who requires no introduction. Quite honestly, their platform is what inspired me to start this podcast. So, of course, I'm talking about the one and only Ethan Banks and Drew Conner Murray, co-host of the packet pushers content platform. Why are they here? I guess you just have to listen to find out. So, welcome to the show, drew and Ethan.

Speaker 2: 0:57

Thanks, Eric.

Speaker 3: 0:59

Thanks for having us, Eric.

Speaker 1: 1:01

So I know I said no introduction was required, but just in case somebody you know, one of the listeners has been living under a rock for the last decade or so, so can you each give us a two minute introduction of who you are? Why don't we start with you, Ethan?

Speaker 3: 1:18

Sure A 20 year plus IT professional. I worked on mostly enterprise networks. In my career I did a bunch of different verticals. I was a consultant for a while. I was a full-time employee for the most part. Worked on back in the dark ages, eric, client server lands Remember those things when client server was everything we were talking. I did a bunch of that kind of work. I worked on WANs and I worked in data centers. I did filing, print stuff, ended up doing networking and security is that's the stuff I really like the most and I got into the kind of in the public sphere. I completed lots of search and wrote about them. I wrote hundreds of blog posts related to search and technology, did some public speaking, including some stuff for Drew, where he was my boss and he contracted me to do some public speaking and other stuff. I started podcasting in 2010 as one of the original packet pushers and then I went full time with that Eric in 2015 and I've been full time as a business owner and podcaster since then.

Speaker 1: 2:10

How'd? I didn't know. So, yeah, well, let's move on to your. Drew, can you give us a little bit of introduction? And like there's so many like stuff that I didn't know until I started working with you guys, like you were part of the networking magazine, like what, let's talk and tell us more about it.

Speaker 2: 2:26

Yeah, so I come from the media side of the tech world. I've been a reporter and editor on a variety of publications. Folks may have heard of Network Computing Network Magazine. I was in charge of all the technical content for the Interop conference for a long time, which is, I think, one of the ways that I got in touch with Ethan and Greg on the packet pushers, having them come in to do some put on some shows at the conference. I also had Ethan and Greg do some writing when I was editor at Network Computing. So I've been on the reporting side of the house on tech media, talking to companies and folks in the space for I guess two decades now too, and then joined the packet pushers in 2015. Now I am full time podcasting as well.

Speaker 1: 3:13

Well, you guys say join, packet. I thought you guys were all co-founders. One day you guys were in a pub and talk over beer and be like let's start this thing, there's nothing like us out there, let's go inspire the next Eric like X the time to do the thing. But that didn't sound like that's what happened, right, because you say joins. I assume there was a formation.

Speaker 2: 3:36

So I walked into something that Ethan and Greg Farrow had set up. They started off the podcast, the heavy networking podcast, and I don't even know if it was called heavy networking where you guys started it.

Speaker 3: 3:47

But they just started it. It was called packet pushers. That was what we called packet pushers.

Speaker 2: 3:51

So you can tell the story, Ethan.

Speaker 3: 3:54

Yeah, it's not far off from what you were imagining. There was no pub involved because we all lived in different places, but to me and Greg Farrow and another guy, dan, who ended up working for AWS so he couldn't be public anymore because AWS said no, no publicity for you, dan.

Speaker 1: 4:10

So Dan left us early on and that was just Dan Cohn, or now you're asking me to remember 15 years ago, and I'm a man of a certain names and it's names it's okay. No, it was not. It was not the name.

Speaker 3: 4:22

Yeah, okay, but he left. And then it was Greg and I doing packet pushers as just a single podcast in our spare time. We found each other because we were bloggers and we had really popular blogs. I had a blog called CCI candidate. I blogged for about two years about the CCI program. As I was working through that, greg had etherealmindcom and we just wanted to collaborate and we came up with podcasting as a way to collaborate together. That's interesting. Sorry, eric.

Speaker 1: 4:54

No, no, go for it.

Speaker 2: 4:55

Yeah, I got involved back when I was still working for Interop because I had worked with Greg and Ethan. Greg invited me to just show up to the network break podcast, which used to be called Coffee Break for people who are really deep in the weeds. So while I was still employed with Interop I would just come on as sort of the weekly co-host and we do our news run down. And then I got fired from Interop and so I mentioned hey, greg, I just got fired, so if you want to find another co-host, I totally understand. And he was like do you want a job? And I said yes, it's gone on from there.

Speaker 1: 5:29

Oh, wow, so that's amazing. I mean so you guys mentioned you guys are doing this full time now. So how did that come go from like a habit or like a site project to all the way to like a business that's able to sustain multiple employees?

Speaker 3: 5:46

Well, the transition was we kind of figured out as we built an audience and a lot of people were listening to the packet pusher show hey, there's an opportunity to make some money here by having sponsors come on and talk about products. And so we didn't know how to handle that. We were engineers, we don't know anything about marketing, we don't know anything about sales, so but we figured out that look, there's other nerds that work for these vendors and we want to talk to the nerds and have nerd conversations. So we figured out we do that and then we would charge money. We didn't know how much was enough and I won't say how much we charged for our very first engagement, but I'll say we got laughed at.

Speaker 3: 6:24

Do you accept a credit card? Ha ha ha, because that's how low ball we were here's some penis and let's go down it was kind of that.

Speaker 3: 6:33

It was a joke. And then we learned over time no, marketing is a serious thing. And we found that the sponsors, the vendors, wanted to work with us on our own terms. That is, speak engineering, speak to fellow engineers about the products and the marketing. People were like, yeah, we'll pay for that, that's great. And figured out how much was enough to charge. And then, over time, as we figured that out, wow, there's a business here, we can do this full time. And this is again right around the 2015 timeframe. I'd come to the end of an engagement with a medical services network that I was working with, who had hired me and then told me they were going to get funding they should have gotten the funding and then hired me because they never got the funding, so they had me sitting around doing the motor operations a little off.

Speaker 3: 7:20

And then Greg was coming up on the end of a contract and he was finishing out that contract. So we talked over and was like let's do it, man, let's jump in both feet, see what happens. And yeah, it's worked out. And we've continued to educate ourselves on product marketing and sales, but still trying to be technical and deep in the weeds with engineering. And that's been a tough line to walk. I'm not going to lie to you. That has been a challenge constantly.

Speaker 3: 7:49

A lot of times, marketing folks come in with bullet points that they want to drive home and we're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, the bullet points are great, but how does it work? We want to know how it works. How do we apply this in the real world, to our lives? And but we've, I think we figured it out, we've done our best with that over the years and it's been. It's been good and honestly, eric, it's needed to become full time for us for the way it's gone, because the amount of research that's involved in building podcasts and of course, we've added so many more podcasts to the network. It's not just the packet pushers show anymore. We rebranded that to heavy networking and now there's what are we up to? Drew eight shows, something like that. There's a lot, a lot that goes on yeah.

Speaker 1: 8:30

Anything to add to that experience, Drew?

Speaker 2: 8:34

I mean it's been interesting to be part of this, to watch it grow, because it did feel like kind of I don't want to say like a pirate ship, but it was just sort of like yeah try something and see if it works, let's figure it out and just kind of explore and take chances and try things. So it's been a wonderful experiment to be a part of and I feel lucky that I'm here and been able to hopefully help a crow a bit.

Speaker 1: 8:59

Yeah. So you mentioned which is like a good segue into what I was going to say you know, like why we're here today? And it's because the topic today is embracing change and it's because I am fortunate enough. I really look at it as a great opportunity to kind of expand the audience and expand my own horizon as a podcast host as well as, just like you said, like learning business right, like embracing changes. So Narrag Automation Nerds is going to move to packet pusher and it's going to be one of that many, many sub streams that's had a very focused topic on just Narrag Automation.

Speaker 1: 9:43

I am super excited about it and if you're you know I don't know what we're going to do with the video that's still out of the air, but if you're watching video, you can see the logo has changed from my old boring logo to this. You know, narrag Automation Nerds with the propeller hat, which is Ethan's known for it, and the orange packet pusher logo and my shirt. So I am super excited to announce this change and I thank you both for welcoming me to the platform because, like I said, I think this is the next step up to learn from you guys as well as to get to know, the more sustainability part. So part of my struggle was kind of what you described and you know, ethan and Drew, what you, you both described as the early days of it felt like a side project. It felt more like a interesting thing to do on the side, but it's, you know, gradually taking more time and energy and resources away from everything else family, business and a full-time job. So you know, this is a great change in my opinion.

Speaker 1: 10:50

We're glad to have you, eric.

Speaker 3: 10:51

That's one thing. We're very, very glad to have you. Network Automation it's been one of those podcasts has been in my feed for a long time in my podcast or so Glad to have you aboard as part of the Packet Pushers Network, for sure. And then, yeah, as you've discovered, the side hustle of podcasting. It's not just I'm going to rock up to the mic with my buddies and we're going to talk for an hour and it'll be great For a technical podcast.

Speaker 3: 11:14

There's planning involved and research and you got to scope out a document, so you got some kind of a conversational flow that's going to make some sense for the people that are listening. And then you got it once the show has been created. You've done all that background work and done the recording and it's there. Now the thing's got to get edited and then you got to publish it. You got to maintain the platform that you use to publish on and so on, and some of that's one time stuff, but some of that's like every week. If you're editing it yourself, it's a grind and I learned really quickly when starting out editing my own podcast. Like it turns out, I'm not going to edit out every um and ah.

Speaker 1: 11:49

Some of those are going to have to be okay, because I'll be here before five hours.

Speaker 3: 11:54

Yeah, exactly Exactly so. Again, really glad to have you on board, Eric.

Speaker 2: 12:00

Yeah, we're excited Eric to have you on board because you're tackling a topic that is probably near and dear to a lot of people in our audience trying to get their hands or arms around network automation. So it's exciting to have you on board and you did a great job. You know doing this as a side gig and building out an audience and building out listeners. So congratulations and welcome aboard. You should be getting your iPad and your cutlass and your parrot very soon.

Speaker 1: 12:23

Yeah, I look forward to those. But, um, yeah, no, and if I mean right off the bat, it feels great to have colleagues and you know, people who are backing you up. If you're, if you're just super sick, that one week, right, somebody will be able to step in and just take care of business while you're gone. Like I said, it felt in the beginning. It felt like I was just shouting into the dark. You know I'm talking, I don't know who's listening right, like I've shown this on on some podcasts and I don't know if it's going to show. Like this is my 3D printed like MakerBot, and what I usually do when I'm creating course is I'm pretending I'm talking to that that you know MakerBot, like how pathetic is that? And just like dude. Like you know, maybe you're interested in, you know EIGRP today or your OSPF and you know, guess what we're going to talk about, bgp. Or you know, like for more network automation, son and APIs today. So it felt that way and you know it's great to finally have some colleagues and to bounce off ideas from.

Speaker 1: 13:30

If you know, one day I decided to get rid of this Yeti mic. Then, like who do I, who do I talk to on? You know what's the best quality? I think actually you have the podcast, the podcast right Like the road uh podcast, and Ethan has some other mic, so like it's just great to have all these resources behind you. And uh, back to what you were talking about, ethan like editing is really a pain. I mean, when I first started the first two pilot episode, I watched the whole series of like YouTube videos on this guy uh called podcast Answer man.

Speaker 1: 14:06

I don't know if you guys heard of him but uh, yeah it's like it's very niche, right, but he has great explanation on how to do this for free. You, you pay like a dollar 99 on on a you know an app and then you pay another 10 bucks on this mic a lapel mic that you could do, and, you know, you put some blanket over your head to reduce the sound, like all of these other stuff, and who just just bootstrapping the totally ghetto. But it works. But it takes so much work to get that first episode out. Then I stopped for like three years, three or four years, and it was just sitting out there, you know, but because it was all free, right, so it didn't cause me any maintenance, so I didn't have any reminder on the lack of progress I've made until a couple of years ago where, you know, podcast was just taking off and I'd like to get your thoughts on that on.

Speaker 1: 14:57

You know, I don't know, uh, it was pre-COVID, but it was uh, you know, just maybe like six months before COVID. That it was, you know, kind of had this trajectory of taking off and um, and then, because there's crowd, there's, you know, platforms like busbrowds and something else, that takes that hosting pain away on distributing it to multiple platforms and all of that. So, uh, so it became easier and then I started to do this. So I like to get your, because you guys started um. Was it 2012 that you guys started um?

Speaker 3: 15:28

that was the very, very beginning, yeah.

Speaker 1: 15:32

Right. So, like, how did you feel about all these changes that has happened? And I know I know this is interesting to me, because most of the time when I listened to like, for example, ethan, your, your, your podcast is all about that topic of that week, right, so you don't deviate from that, you were very focused on it. And, drew, you know, your, your, you make a very, uh, very concise effort to make it like 30 minutes, so so it's interesting to hear your guys's, you know, kind of thoughts and kind of experience going through it. I don't know if anybody else have asked you this, but, uh, why don't we start with you, drew, this time on? You know your thoughts on these changes that has happened, uh, maybe in the beginning, and I don't know if there's like kind of a era that you would segment them out at.

Speaker 2: 16:19

Um, I guess I feel like podcasts really started to take off, in part because, as you mentioned, eric, it's a low barrier to entry. You can get a pretty inexpensive mic, you can throw a blanket over your head and you can start talking and then you got a podcast that. The tricky bit is one distribution. That's also gotten easier, which I think is also leading to the rise of podcasts. Uh, um, that that's available now to make a lot easier to actually get the podcast out to people.

Speaker 2: 16:43

Um, but the the hard part is consistency doing it time after time after time, getting show after show after show, even when maybe you don't feel like it or you think I've run out of topics or my guests just flaked on me for the third time and I've supposed to record tomorrow and what am I going to do? Uh, it's, it's that kind of stuff that really, um, it makes the difference between, I think, a successful podcaster and someone who just does two or three episodes and was like, okay, I guess I'm done. Um, I think the reason it exploded is because what we hear from people is podcasting is, uh, this feels a little bit uncomfortable word to me. It's intimate, right, there's uh voices sort of right like literally inside your head, uh, and if you listen to podcasts over time, then you sort of sort of pick up on the quirks and the personalities of the people talking to you and you sort of develop this parasocial relationship with them. So it's just kind of like, I think, that's it's it's power, is it's it's immediacy, it's intimacy, it's it's being right there with you.

Speaker 2: 17:38

And particularly when you're talking about something that so many people, like our audience, spent so much time doing, something they love, something they work with, it's it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's it's with. Uh, there's that extra element of it, that sort of binds uh d that the podcast of people its that, that that deep um diving into topics that they're interested in and love Um, combined with that, that personality and that familiarity and that intimacy that makes the podcasting in general me so powerful, such powerful medium.

Speaker 1: 18:07

What about you, ethan? Is there any? Just the segment of the changes? What do you think of all these kind of progression over the years?

Speaker 3: 18:18

One thing that we've observed over the years there's a lot of people that start podcasts. Few people that stick with it. It is challenging. Even with the number of platforms and tools that have made it easier to produce and publish a podcast, there's still a lot of people that give up on it. It's tough, or I'll be listening to one, and I haven't heard a podcast from these guys for six months, and I was in the pub. Oh, it's been a while since we did a show. We really had to buckle down and get a show in the can. Let's go, let's go. And then that's the last one. They never do another one. After that it's over. So that's a thing that we've noticed. It's difficult to stick with it. To really stick with it, you got to believe in it and commit to it. Another thing that's happened in the last since 2010, when we started, is the explosion of other things trying to get people's attention.

Speaker 3: 19:09

That has taken people's attention away from podcasts on some level, because they've got Netflix and they've got TikTok and they've got Disney Plus and they've got YouTube and all these other things that are out there that can keep your attention. It's not just other podcasts, it's not just, it's just a lot of things that are distracting people now and keeping them from listening to podcasts. I think work from home is another change that is related to that. We know stories from people who would say well, since I started working from home because of COVID most likely I don't hear you guys as much, because I used to listen to you on my commute and now they don't have a commute or their commute across the hall, kick the cat and into the office. They don't have time to listen to a show sometimes.

Speaker 1: 19:52

Optionally kick the cat Optionally kick the cat.

Speaker 3: 19:55

No cast was harmed during the recording of the show. It's been another change that I think has really forced those of us that are making content to take it very seriously. You have got to put a show together that is valuable to the person that's listening, that doesn't waste their time. You've got to be serious enough about it that when you get to the end of that podcast recording as a listener, they've gotten value. If they listened and they cared enough about it to pay attention, they've gotten value. It's improved things for them.

Speaker 3: 20:25

I know that's the medium that we're in of tech podcasting. That's really engineering focused. I understand there's a lot of podcasts out there. They're for entertainment. They're there for fun. That's a different thing than what we're talking about here, where you're asking someone to focus 30 to 45 minutes or even an hour on something that's technical and deep and could affect their livelihood or their career where they're working. We've got plenty of stories from folks who are like I heard about X on your show a vendor, a topic, whatever it was. I brought it up in a conference room during a design meeting and everyone turned their head and looked at me and said how do you know about that I've never heard of this. Oh, I heard it on Packet Pushers. That's the kind of stuff that we strive for. We want to make matter, even in this time of change and competing in the attention economy.

Speaker 1: 21:16

Yeah, I would totally echo what both of you said, but especially Drew's comment about this being intimate and it's kind of a superpower. You guys know me as who have written multiple books. I see that as a superpower is having a conversation that's across time, that's across geographic barriers. The book has now traveled to more places than it had been. It has a Russian translation, it has multiple translations out there in Korean, chinese and so on. I see that as a superpower.

Speaker 1: 21:54

But I think podcasts even take one step further, that you're transmitting your personality along with the content that you're trying to produce. For example, for me, since I listen to you guys every week even though I haven't met you guys I was on the show before but even before then I feel like I know you guys as friends. When I first time I met Michael Kennedy, who was another guy who helped me out a lot on the content, on the preparation, who's the host of Talk Python and wrote the phone for my book I know he's recently on your show, ethan shout out to Michael there. Even before I met him at, I believe, was PyCon, that I knew about his interests, his professional career trajectory and all of that, and I think that's the superpower that podcasts bring you, because for a YouTube video, at least for me, it's hard for me to sit in front of a screen doesn't need to be a computer and watch the video for like 10, 20 minutes. I just don't have that nowadays. Maybe attention span, maybe just that fragment of time, but for a podcast I could listen to it while, like you said, drew and Ethan, that when you're commuting or when you're working out or when you're doing something. So I think those are kind of the special characteristics and what keeps me doing the podcast, even though I'm guilty of that sporadic release, especially when I'm going back to school. Working and going back to school and family. All those stuff are really just coming at you and it's hard to be consistent on that. But yeah, I agree with everything you guys have said.

Speaker 1: 23:47

So let's get back. I got so excited about talking about podcast and moving to the platform, we didn't even get to the topic we're supposed to talk about today. I mean I don't know. So I will be honest, in preparing for this week's and the two episodes that we're going to record, I don't have a lot of thoughts on, just because part of it it's hard for me to organize. I mean, the topic that I thought about discussing today was embracing change, but once I think about what I'm going to talk about, I either go to light, to on the surface level or go too deep right, like moving to the USA oh my God, like that's a kind of warm for me. So I don't know what's your first thought when that popped to your mind, drew, when I talk about let's record a couple of episodes about embracing change.

Speaker 2: 24:43

Well, a couple of things. One is we are in an industry that is constantly changing In some ways. In some ways it's still the same, but there's always some new way to do the things that we've been doing before, or a new tool on top of all the other tools that have come before. So there's always new things. You have to learn new skills and so on. So part of our industry is essentially about change, and I think one of the things we talk about on the podcast all the time is navigating that change, trying to understand which changes are meaningful to you, which aren't, and so on. But then there are more personal changes, like I do want to hear your story about moving in the US, because I think that's interesting, because I think it does say something about you as a person. So there's lots of ways to look at change job change, professional change, personal changes. Maybe we can get into all of it.

Speaker 1: 25:29

Yeah, I'll tell you, ethan, what's your first thought when we're just about embracing change. Should we even embrace change, Right? I mean, there's nothing wrong with just.

Speaker 2: 25:38

Sometimes changes just rust upon us. I don't know if we get to decide if we want to embrace it.

Speaker 1: 25:42

Yeah, exactly that's what I want to talk about too.

Speaker 3: 25:45

My first thought was that sometimes change is just change. It is what it is and it kind of is what you make of it. If you decide you're going to struggle against the change because you don't want things to be different, you create all this tension in yourself. That's pointless. You don't really have any control over what's happening. Change is inevitable, whether it's tech or just life. For example, I used to have kids at home and they're growing up and so now I don't and I miss having my kids around. They're awesome, but I'm also glad that they're adults and they're making their way in the world. I'm proud of both of them. They're both awesome. There's no point in being upset about that change. Sometimes change just it is what it is. So it's kind of my first thought. I mean, I got other thoughts too, but that was the one I led with Eric.

Speaker 1: 26:25

Yeah, I think I would agree with what you said and I think when I think back on all the major changes and it's it's a Real topic in my mind on whether I should embrace change, right, because I'm a very Routine-based guy, I mean I order the same thing, I go to the same restaurants, I order the same thing, and you know, I like that right. Like I like that predictability. What I want to do is I want to Be very predictable in certain aspect of my life so that could go super aggressive. On the other aspects, I don't have to worry about what to eat at this restaurant, I don't have to worry about what to wear in the morning, but I could save all of that decision because you know, decision fatigue is a real thing. But I could save all those decision-making Capabilities for the things I want to go aggressive on, like what, what should I do for with my career? What should I do today so that I could achieve those goals?

Speaker 1: 27:25

So that was a kind of a struggle for me on whether we should embrace change, and you brought up a good plan then on. Sometimes it's just inevitable and that trust upon us. So I think the biggest difference for me is Whether I resisted in the beginning. Ultimately you're accepted. You have no other way. But whether I resisted in the beginning is Whether it's forced upon me or whether I choose that path myself. Right, like if I choose to change career or if I choose to Move the pack a stream from you know hosting on my own to packet pusher. I embrace that because I choose it. I make that decision.

Speaker 1: 28:07

But you know, maybe just use the example that we brought up before moving to the US. It wasn't, it wasn't my decision, right? I didn't wake up one day when I was you know 13 and say it wouldn't be nice to be in the US, right, like it was a family change and it was, you know parents getting divorced, so it wasn't my choice. So then you know that that Emotional tie was tied to that fact that I would. So I don't know. I mean, what do you guys think on just that word or embracing change, even though it's it's not Always in within your control?

Speaker 3: 28:46

Hmm. So yeah, you were describing a situation where you ended up in the US, not through circumstances you wanted there. There was against you and I. Okay, so sometimes change can be can be bad, right. Right, I was laid off At a startup. I was working at the. The startup lost its expected funding round. It was like I was sure thing it's gonna happen. We're getting the next funding round, it's all good, we're gonna be ready to go for the next two years, no worries, right? And it didn't happen. It didn't happen. Within the space of a week, we went from we're taking over the world, we're blowing all our competitors out of the water, we're driving tons of market share to. Uh, there's some rumors going around that something's not happening with the finances and maybe that funding rounds not coming through, and then that Friday we all got fired. It was weird.

Speaker 3: 29:34

Just that fast is like, okay, what just happened now? I got a job that night working at a company I used to work for as a consultant. That wasn't great. It wasn't really the job I wanted to do. I liked the job I had at that startup. I was a data services engineer working on DNS and email and a bunch of stuff, working with lots of customers. I had a pile of work on my desk to be done and we were building out a new data center and, oh man, it was like exciting times. You know, it's the place I wanted to be right, go back and work for that small consultancy because they need Somebody. I mean, it's better than not getting paid. But it's not exactly what I wanted to be doing.

Speaker 3: 30:10

But you just suck it up and do what you got to do. You just adjust to the change and and you make it work and that circumstance that's not so bad, right? Oh, you got laid off and then immediately had a job, but it wasn't the one you wanted. You poor baby. You know there's a bunch of people I know right now are in tech that have been laid off and they got nothing. They're looking and it's hard, as friends of mine, that we're looking right now. They got laid off and it's just a scramble of 200 people applying for a job within 24 hours, for a position A friend of mine was looking for. He's like there's already 200 applicants. You guys just posted it. Yeah, yeah, we just posted it. That's, that's the world we're living in right now. So, but there you go. Sometimes, just what can you do? What? What are your choices? To make yourself miserable or to figure out how to make the best of the situation and and adjust as best you can?

Speaker 1: 31:01

Yeah, I mean Think I think that is it is. It's how fast can you get over that to to have the wisdom to differentiate between the things you could change and the things you cannot and Get over that. If this is something that is with you know, not within your control, then you kind of suck it up and you Embrace the change or at least you know, be able to live with it and move on with your life and control the things that you could control. That is something that I did not learn when I was younger, but now that it's going through so many changes, you know whether that's job or moving around. You know, in different locations and changing jobs multiple, multiple times that that I'm starting to realize is that the faster you get over that emotional like what is it like? The five state of?

Speaker 2: 31:54

Five stages of grief.

Speaker 1: 31:56

Yeah, the, the faster you start going, you know, like the blame, the angry, the Resentfulness, and then now you become a acceptance right, like you accept it, and then now you talk about what can you do, like if you, like you said, if you lose your job, then then the sooner you accept it, go. You know, think about your emergency, fine, and go on and look and all of that. The faster you go to that, the better.

Speaker 2: 32:22

I think there's something to that, although I would say I think you also kind of do need to go through that process. It's easy to say intellectually, well, I'll just get over it, but emotionally it can be a much harder thing, especially if there are things like the livelihood of myself and my family tied into it and my self-identity. So it is one thing to say, yeah, just get over it and go with the flow, but I do think people also need to give themselves if they can, if they have that luxury a little bit of time to kind of think about and work through and figure out okay, what is in my control, what's outside of my control, how am I feeling about this, where do I want to go? Before just being like, all right, suck it up and move on and find the next thing.

Speaker 2: 33:01

I do think we need to sit with a major experience, like moving to an entire different country. Or I was at an awesome startup and now I'm fired. Or with me it was like I made a job change and then got laid off and was in a panic. You got to sit with these things.

Speaker 1: 33:19

I think that's the adult in you talking, because that is really wise. So I think, even for from a younger Eric perspective, I used to think that you should just suck it up and run through walls. And I find myself talking to a lot of my guests, maybe just the topic that we talked about during the show, that, off the camera, I told them.

Speaker 1: 33:44

What I hate the most nowadays is these hustle points that I would call online. It's just like, oh no, you just have to try really hard and you're there in whatever unfortunate situation you're in because you didn't work hard enough or you didn't have the audacity or the grit to go through it, which is totally not true, because we're all products of our circumstances. If you were born as a female, in some countries you don't even get an opportunity to educate yourself. How can you try hard that way? All of our starting points is different. So that reminded me of the multiple conversation I've had with the guests. Is that nowadays, after going through a lot of layoffs and job change and personal that I just dislike the fact that people ignore the fact that we're starting points. It's different and each of us deal with situation differently.

Speaker 2: 34:48

Absolutely.

Speaker 3: 34:49

Yeah, there's some people that talk about the grit and determination and that's all it takes Just work hard and it'll all happen. No, any business owner will tell you that, if they're really honest with themselves, there's some element of fate, luck or timing that had to do with the success of their business. It had nothing to do with how hard they worked. They just were at the right place at the right time or they had a particular connection that helped them make it to the next step. And other people didn't get those breaks and their business didn't make it. That is the honest reality of a lot of business. Yeah, you got to work hard. That's certainly part of it, but it's not all of it. There's more to the equation for success.

Speaker 1: 35:24

Yeah, just more empathy and understanding. Go ahead.

Speaker 2: 35:26

Yeah, I think we live in a culture that, in some ways, if you don't succeed, then it must have been your fault because you didn't work hard enough. That failure comes with a judgment about you as a person, when it isn't necessarily so.

Speaker 1: 35:44

Yeah, I also think, just because I came from another country and I constantly go back to other countries and I try to read up on other cultures as well, I think this is almost like a American. Well, I think, by some standards, it's an American thing that if you, it's like a capitalist meritocracy society we gave you all the opportunities in the world and if you can't cash in on some of them or you didn't do the right thing, then it must be on you. It's not that we did, but you look at the homeless crisis and all that. I don't know. The fact that, contradicting that narrative, yeah, yeah, Meritocracy is such a loaded word.

Speaker 3: 36:33

It's been places I've worked. Where most places I've worked, it's not about your merit. It might be on some level if the place is hard up for tech talent, but so often it can be more about who you know and who your buddies are. That's the thing. That is the differentiator between you getting kept or laid off because of who your friends are, you getting the bonus or not getting the bonus because, again, who your friends are and how well you're liked within the organization, much less about how good you are at your job. And that always rubbed me the wrong way, especially when I was younger. It's like dang it. I did the thing and I did it really good and I didn't get rewarded for it. And he did because he's buddies with the boss and that's just how that works. Sorry, man.

Speaker 1: 37:16

He markets himself better. Yeah, yeah, right On that happy thought. I mean I think this is a very interesting episode. I think I think we talked, our range is very broad and I look forward to discuss more of technology change topic in our next episode, but this is probably a good time to wrap up on just timing wise, on our first episode of this recording. Well, tell us where can people find you on if they want to follow you, listen to more of your content. Why don't we start with you, ethan?

Speaker 3: 37:55

For me, packetbushersnet is the best place to go to find the podcast that I'm hosting. I'm writing and blogging up there Any YouTube videos and work that I'll be doing. That's all. You're going to be able to find it all at packetbushersnet and along with that, we have a community Slack channel that anyone is welcome to join. I am in there. You can DM me if you wanted and then last would be linked in. You can find me on LinkedIn pretty easily Ethan Banks.

Speaker 2: 38:18

Yeah, and I'm also all over the place at packetbushers. The Slack channel is a great place. We also have packetbushersnetf. You If you use for follow up, if you want to reach out and say hello or leave us a comment or a correction or whatever. I'm on Blue Sky and I'm active there and I'm hoping to build a technology community there and it's now open. You don't need an invite. So if you're interested and you miss what Twitter used to be, I think we can make it happen again on Blue Sky. So come check that out. That's my two cents there.

Speaker 1: 38:44

And I'm also on LinkedIn. Every time you say a slash fu, I always just chuckle.

Speaker 2: 38:51

That was a great innovation, as you might be able to guess. But yes, fu is for follow up.

Speaker 1: 38:55

Yeah for follow up. Yeah, don't think of anything else.

Speaker 2: 38:59

right, follow ups yes follow up, not that other thing you were thinking.

Speaker 1: 39:03

No, no, definitely not.

Speaker 3: 39:05

Eric.

Speaker 1: 39:07

Thank you for listening to the Network Generation. There's podcasts today. Find us on Apple podcast, Google podcast, Spotify and all the other podcast platforms. Until next time, Bye, bye.